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[Sid]

Hi, welcome to The exChange Podcast, where we explore journeys of change and inspiration across our ecosystem. Today I have with me, Khushboo Awasthi. And Ashcharya Prabhu. I will let you guys introduce yourself. Ash, you should go first.

[Ashcharya]

Hi. My name is Ashcharya Prabhu, and I work at C4EC in the Leader’s Lab Network.

[Khushboo]

Hello, My name is Khushboo Awasthi. I’m the co-founder and chief operating officer of Sikshalokam, which is one of the missions that works on enabling education leadership in the country. Personally, I come from, one of the eastern states in the country called Bihar. And, it’s a pretty small town where I grew up. And it’s been quite an amazing journey from coming from Bihar to now seeding these two wonderful organisations that are working at scale, trying to improve the education equity scenario in the country.

[Ashcharya]

Khushboo, you said you come from a small town in Bihar and I know then it was an extremely patriarchal society. Now, after facing all the challenges and despite all the odds, you are right now a role model for a lot of young entrepreneurs and I would want to touch upon saying that a lot of female and female-bodied entrepreneurs. So how was it for you, like growing up in those circumstances, especially related to your education? The second part to that question would be who or what kept you going? What was your inspiration around that time?

[Khushboo]

So I was growing up in Bihar in the 90s. And definitely it was a patriarchal society, even today, largely it is. But I think the 90s was a special decade because, Bihar as a geography, socio-politically, it was not a very safe space. So the society is patriarchal. So first, anyway, there are norms set for a woman to say what you can do and what you can’t do. Second, because the socio-political environment was unsafe, the boundaries just became far more stricter. I don’t remember ever spending time outside of home after 5 p.m. 

And for me, as a child and for so many of the girls like me, that is how the world worked. Like, that was a norm in my head that, hey, you know, girls are supposed to behave like this. And yes, for every single small thing that people may think that it’s normal and people can just get access to it. I mean, going out in a park to, you know, staying back in school after school hours, you just hang out with friends. I don’t think I ever did it. For small, small things you have to always kind of hustle. You have to show up. I think at that point in time it was a lot of limiting environment. 

But as of today, I feel those experiences did shape me as a person, As a person who has to find the pathways despite the constraints. And I think the biggest learning while I was growing up. And now when I reflect on it, Ashcharya is that, no matter how big the circumstances, you always find champions. For me, growing up, that person was my mother. And I think I can’t thank her enough because, in my family, I’m the first girl in my family to actually go for higher education, and the first girl in my family to actually take up a job. I’m the first one to obviously be an entrepreneur in the family. 

But I think it all, all these began with those small steps and those small steps, were enabled by my mom. Whether it was about no my girl would actually go for a professional course. And also, I think a lot of leadership lessons that now I take it for granted. I think it goes back to my growing up years where I feel how you have to find those small wins you have to do it. Nobody will come and change your life upside down. Like you have to find those small, small pathways, those rays of hope, and always look out for champions. And those are three, four things that I’ve always kept it close to my heart, even today in my leadership decisions.

[Ashcharya]

Now you are being the champion for a lot of young folks. I’m curious to know your journey. So what happened? You did say higher education. So what happened next? And what were the sparks that led you to start ShikshaLokam and Mantra4Change? And I know that there was this uncomfortable feeling that you sat with or that kept you up on most nights I have to do something about this. And now you are doing something about it. So tell us, what were those small moves and which also led to these sparks of ShikshaLokam and Mantra4Change?

[Khushboo]

So as I mentioned, Higher education was not something of a norm for girls growing up in my family. And when I decided to take up engineering and I was a good student. So for my mom, I think it was like, no, I should give the best opportunity. Whatever, in her worldview, was the best. An engineering degree definitely, at that point in time, offered that promise that my child would be able to go out, really take up a job, live a life of responsibility. 

My mom has always told me that it’s not about the money that you make, but it’s about the decisions in your life that you can take for yourself and for people that you care for. So, I think just getting an opportunity to complete my engineering here in the southern part of India helped me to just see the world from a very different lens. I had professors who were woman. I had a dean who was a woman. And so seeing that the women can actually do things differently and they can actually make decisions was a big, big learning for me. And such a great example to say what else can I do? And so I think in the early stages of my engineering degree or when I took up my first job as a software developer in Bangalore, in this vibrant city of Bangalore. And suddenly you see world from a very different lens, like there are young people all around, girls and boys are interacting with ease. And something just kept gnawing at me saying, hey, I know when I talked to my colleagues, they had so many opportunities growing up. 

And why is it that in the beginning, it was so much about why is it that I had to lose out on those? But very soon it turned into there are so many more children like me who are still today losing out on those opportunities. And that was the reason that I started as a, I mean, in India, the corporates have these volunteering programs. I was working at Wipro at that point in time. So I joined Wipro CARES, which is a volunteering program, and that took me to so many beautiful non-profits that were working with children, with schools. And, I think each experience made the reflection really deeper, in my mind that I can do something more with my life and that now that the opportunities that have opened up for me, I think I also have bigger responsibilities. 

Having said that, I mean, no decision in life is easy. You know, when you have fought so hard for your freedom and suddenly you are in this place that you’re enjoying yourself, you’re learning so much and then saying, what else can I do? I think what helped me in that point in time was that, I had a school friend, and now he’s my husband. So both of us coming from the same place, Obviously, we started hanging out together, talking about the new world that we were both seeing and just reflecting on some of these thoughts, new thoughts that were emerging in my mind in terms of, hey, you know, maybe the life can have a deeper purpose, May be we can do things differently. 

So just having that again, a partner, a person with whom you can engage in shared meaning making was very, very important in making those decisions about it. Maybe it’s time to quit the corporate world and start something new. And I think I must call out that at that point in time, I had no professional degree in education. I had no idea how development was. I didn’t know development sector as a phrase exists. So it was more about what can I do with my life to enable children who don’t have those opportunities that maybe some of us had growing up. So it started with that spark. And, how we started Mantra is in itself a journey. It was 2009, when we decided, Santosh and I decided that we will do something in education. We had no idea what. 

So Santosh joined the Teach for India fellowship. He was from the first cohort and I did my masters in Tata Institute of Social Sciences, just to kind of explore and understand what the sector encompasses. And through the two years of his fellowship and my masters, we continued engaging with community, really working very closely with parents, interacting with these children. So that, again, gave us very real life experiences of what are the motivations, the aspirations of these people. 

And again going back to the idea of keep taking those baby steps. So we started working with them, start engaging with them, started saying which school are you going to? Can we go and visit your school? And seeing how school as an infrastructure, as a space is enabling or not enabling those experiences for the children. And from there, the idea of what can be transformed in existing schools came into being. And that was the seed of Mantra4Change. We started Mantra4Change formally in 2013 to enable school Transformation for the existing schools in the country.

[Sid]

How do you identify your own champions? 

[Khushboo]

When you see that you, as a person, have to take charge of your life, your decisions, there’s so much of independence woven into that, and then you feel like I’m the sole keeper of my life. And to control it versus, this other side, that if you have to grow in life, you have to really enable a lot of things, you have to trust other people around you. And again, going back to my life experiences within the home, my mother, she couldn’t have done things alone. Because it required there are very hard and fast societal norms that she had to fight. So she also needed a champion. 

I had an uncle who really, at that point in time said, I will go with her to make sure that she gets admitted into the engineering college. Then when we started, Mantra4Change I mean, what did we know about education? So then reaching out to say who else is there, who knows about education. And in the beginning, in the early days of Mantra4Change we went to these professors of education in Azim Premji university, and there was such a big support. But in the beginning, when we approached them, why should they trust us? these two young people we are engineers, we have been working and now we are here to work in education. So that trust building, just letting people know what the intention is with which we are coming, putting your intent out there really helps in building trust. And it’s not that trust gets built in one day. 

So to your point, it’s a constant effort to show up, to engage with people, to talk to them, to say, you know, this is why we are coming and making the intention very, very authentically out there has helped us, has allowed us to get champions, help people believe in us and contribute in the way that they saw was, fitting the mission. Or our personal needs at that point in time and our life is full of such examples, From these professors from Azim Premji University to Sanjay Purohit himself, who we met in 2013, when we were baby starting Mantra4Change and then here is this person who has this hoard of knowledge and what would incentivise him to spend time with us.

 But it was all about showing up and talking to people, investing time in really knowing each other as people and, authentically talking about why you’re doing what you’re doing. And that has helped that is helping us even today when we are shaping Shikshagraha as a movement, when we are designing with other social entrepreneurs and saying why should they change their way or modify the real work into fit into this larger story of solving for education equity together? So building trust, showing up and, being patient with people is very important.

[Ashcharya]

Khushboo, I’ve been hearing about ShikshaLokam since 2018-19, because I have a very close friend there and what intrigued me then was the plus one thinking. And now that I’m part of the ecosystem, I’m just inspired to see how it has been transforming and especially with micro improvements. And whenever I hear that atomic habits come in and I’ve seen you talk about those smaller steps that can lead the way. So could you give us a little insight about what ShikshaLokam does? And, just double click on how micro improvements actually catalyse exponential change into the system, into the education system that we’re talking about.

[Khushboo]

So ShikshaLokam, it’s a milestone that’s very close to my heart as an organisation, as a mission and how it came to be. So it was 2017, five years of Mantra4Change. It was the year when we had just completed five years of Mantra4Change. We were working with around 50 schools in and around Bangalore. Amazing set of results because it was a small team going to the school, working with the school principal, helping improve the schools as an organisation. And then Mr Shibhulal, who is one of the co-founders and former CEO of Infosys, He’s been a great supporter of our work. And we were again fortunate to have found him in 2015. So, Sanjay Purohit, Shibu Sir and Kumari Ma’am.

They were on our advisory board at that point in time we were presenting what we have achieved in five years. And now what’s our game plan for the next five years? And we said, we are working in 50 schools and in the next five years we want to go to a thousand schools. Inspiring, right? Yeah, absolutely. We presented that Sanjay Sir asked us do you want to grow the organisation or do you want to scale the idea. We are sitting on the other side of the table. and we have no clue what growth and scale means or how are they different. And we said interesting, we will go back think about it. And he said no why 1000 schools. Why not 10,000 schools. Why not 50,000 schools. 

And that was the sole feedback that we took away from the advisory review meeting. And then obviously, a great mentor doesn’t just ask questions. He/She also then engages with you to help you find answers. And that’s what he did. We went back to the drawing board and relooked at the whole idea. Today that we talk about in Societal Thinking is the scale is not about what you can do, scale is about the size of the problem. And I think that was the genesis of ShikshaLokam where we said, what is the size of the problem? And we said, if India as a country has 1.5 million schools, what would it take to transform those 1.5 million schools so that all children in the country get access to enabling learning experiences? 

And the moment we arrived at that question, when we came to terms with that imagination or that lens we said maybe how we are doing things with Mantra will not suffice, and hence a new way of thinking And what would it take to actually enable this and the entire societal model came into life with ShikshaLokam We said we have to build an infrastructure that will enable these key interactions that we are able to drive through Mantra in these schools, How a teacher is talking to a student, how a principal is talking to a teacher. 

So what could that shared capability look like? We need more Mantras. This is a second order question Like one Mantra would never be able to do it in their lifetime. Or one Khushboo and one Santosh will not be able to do it. So how do we find more such organisations? Bring them on to a common co-creation ecosystem that people are able to exchange ideas, build upon each other. Sid has developed something Ashcharya had built something. How do I get access to it so that I can build on top, of each other rather than, again, building from scratch? 

And last but not the least, when you are talking about India 1 million schools are public schools that are being run by government. So how do we engage with government as a partner, rather than someone who is just giving us permission to work in schools? So that was the whole idea of the Societal Network saying government is a key actor, other nonprofits in the country, other community-based organisations, how do we start working with them so that this whole mission of transforming 1.5 million school it even looks feasible. And that’s how ShikshaLokam started. It’s very interesting that initially when we were conceptualising ShikshaLokam. 

By the way, ShikshaLokam is an education system leadership development mission. The whole idea is how do you develop leadership among actors in the system? And the first instinct that we had was, we’ll set up a physical institute where people will come attend courses, really become better leaders. They will go back and transform their schools. And then when this whole scale thinking, the size of the problem, the scale, speed and sustainability as three lens, when we started applying to our work we realized how infeasible that idea looked. That is something that we shouldn’t even spend our time on. And that’s why the the alternate way of thinking. ShikshaLokam was born as a societal mission. I think 2017 was the year when Sanjay sir was working on Ekstep foundation on what this framework would look like. And I feel a lot of joy, a lot of pride in saying that ShikshaLokam was one of those missions that actually was born with Societal Thinking.

[Ashcharya]

When you spoke of this adaptability and I’m seeing this play very crucial role in the next gen leaders that you were primarily working with Khushboo. And it’s also a crucial part that you play where you are enabling education leadership as well. I read this also somewhere in a blog where you spoke of, leading is like living in Goa, which is quite interesting. What’s behind this, especially when you did your Leader’s Lab event? So I’m curious to know how did this analogy come to you? What led you to pen down those thoughts?  And I know some of the influencers were really the leaders that surrounded you at that time, or the ones who took up the leadership roles. So just to break it down for us, and in your role as a leader as well, what are some of the challenges that you have faced and how did you even tackle them?

[Khushboo]

I think that blog was before Covid. So there was this one senior team member, one of our leadership team members were just joined us. And before coming to Bangalore, he was living in Goa. It was one of those conversations, when I said wow! living in Goa, that must be fun. And then as someone who has lived there, he started calling out how people wouldn’t show up if you were plumbing issue at 1:00 in the afternoon because that’s how it it. There are pros and cons of every decision. And, I have always worked, as someone who identifies a leadership team who nurtures a leadership team, whether it’s Mantra or ShikshaLokam, any initiative that I’m part of, there’s nothing that is solely dependent on me. 

And that’s been just a way of working that comes very naturally to me. And you talked about young leaders, and we have these young team members who have started playing these leadership roles or who started demonstrating leadership. Obviously, that means there are things that you don’t feel ready for. You start feeling nervous about certain decisions, or you may feel certain bottlenecks where some team member is not maybe listening to you or some government stakeholder, because when you are dealing with different kinds of actors, there are different incentives, different power dynamics, and, mostly power dynamics don’t work in favour of those who are young. 

So a lot of these discussions come up in my one on one with my team members,and I think that’s why that analogy sat so well. And, in my head that ultimately everything is a choice. Every decision we make is a choice. I have always maintained the decisions are neither wrong nor right. You have to make them right. That means you have to come back and decide again and again that is why I made this choice. And that’s why I have to do things to make that decision. So as a way of learning, a way of working, we said we have to work with different partners. Now, aligning partners takes a lot of time. We spoke about patience earlier. it sounds like such a small word, but in daily life it takes a lot of toll. It’s like, when you when you go in a multi-party meeting, there are like ten NGO leaders and each one is equally passionate. Otherwise, why would have they started this? Right? 

And then bringing people onto the same page, enabling those shared meaning making it takes a lot of time and sometimes people will come with very strong point of view. And then you question also like why am I even doing this? You know, is it required because people will ask you question, I could have done this. So your first instinct is always like it’s okay, let’s just put it aside. But then you’ll come back and you say, no. You know we chose to design ShikshaLokam in this way because Scale was the goal, speed was the goal. Sustainability was the goal. 

So now go back on that designing table and then again come back And invest time in those trust-building exercises. And I think a similar example that I would like to call out here is especially when you work with government stakeholders, when you enter into a development sector. You always say, you know, I want to change the life of this child. I want to really enable experiences for this woman. But whatever your mission is? And that is very gratifying when that person’s life is changed and they come back to you and say, you know, you did this for me. Thank you so much. 

Now in ShikshaLokam’s way of doing you are actually getting that child’s learning experiences changed while working with government actors, and they may not always have the same incentives as me. So those conversations, sometimes they appear very resistant because of their world views. They say why should I trust you? What do you know? Have you studied education? I’ve been into meeting rooms where people said you have not studied education. Why are you working in education And those meetings, those interactions put you at the back foot and you ask oh, God. Is this why I came into this? Is this why I started Mantra4Change and ShikshaLokam? 

But then, ultimately it’s about coming back reflecting and saying, this is why I started and hence I have to go back to that IAS officer go back and re-engage and spend time. And that moment is never easy. But it has to be done and it has to be developed as a practice. And I think after having done for so many years, now that’s coming naturally, but for other team members, other young social entrepreneurs, Difficult. 

So these are the experiences that I share saying, it’s okay, things will get better and your hair’s will start turning gray, and then people will take you seriously, that’s on the lighter note. But yes, I think it’s very important. Some of these things, especially when you’re working as a system orchestrator, when you know that you are no more into the act of doing, you’re not directly engaging with the child, but you are engaging with so many actors and trying to align them so that all of us can work together for that child’s learning state.

[All speakers]

Let’s play Pictionary. Who wants to go first. I can start. Ahh! School. You go next. Ahh! exponential change, on those lines Network. Murmuration. No Okay, Another model of exponential change, Fractals!  

[Ashcharya]

I heard you say this quite a bit in some of the conversations that agencies is truly about letting go of control. You’ve been in this ecosystem longer than all of us. I want to understand how has being a part of this ecosystem being a part of this journey shaped you as a leader in terms of your beliefs, how you have thought of strategies and how you thought of things. Just to give us an understanding of what has it been to be a part of this?

[Khushboo]

So many things at so many levels. I think this whole, coming across with the, the Societal Thinking, I mean, you have these three books here. Full of wisdom. I think my journey would have never been the same, or today I would not be doing what I’m doing had it not been for the provocation that were offered by Societal Thinking. And so many mindset shift like as an entrepreneur when you begin. 

And my journey was no different. Like anybody, when you start your entrepreneurship journey, you say I’m going to change the world. And this problem was not solved because I was not solving it. But, then you realise the complexity of challenge and it comes to you in phases. The more audacious your goals start become, the more challenges you start facing, because then you’re seeing the ecosystem in its entirety. So for us, I think the whole idea of how do you design a program, how do you even conceptualise an intervention changed because of Societal Thinking. 

Typically, when you design, you’re like, okay, these are the outcomes I’m trying to achieve, so these are the activities that I will do. That outcome itself, got questioned. when we applied Societal Thinking you spoke of agency, Tried to. if you are saying that as a social entrepreneur, I’m not going to change the learning experience of the child. I’m going to enable the school leader or the teacher so that they can enable it for the child. In itself is a mindset shift, and hence it has a ripple effect. Then your way of designing the intervention also changes why I said ShikshaLokam is a leadership development mission. 

Because all of us working in education are ultimately working for children, but all my program activities today are directed towards how do I enable this school principal, this teacher, so that they can identify they can sense what is it that is hindering the learning experience of the children, how do they learn on the go to say, how do I solve it? And then they actually improve it? Ashcharya you spoke about micro improvements earlier. Just arriving at the idea of micro improvement was an aha moment for us. 

You know, one of these books, I think it is in Think Scale that says, it is simplicity that scales. Typically in early stages of program design. when we start, we have so many interlinkages or this will happen then I will do this, then this. So it’s a really complex design or if not complex, it is complicated designs that we start with. And leadership development was one such idea. When we said we have to nurture Leadership in the education ecosystem, we started defining these leadership development frameworks. 

You know, we were very close to actually putting something as complicated to the Harvard School put together. There are five domains, there are these subdomains. One needs to have the idea of – how do you deal with challenges? How do you do budgeting, so many things? We said, all this in its entirety, it is never gonna scale. And then we will always be stuck at the debate, saying, is this the right trait to build or is there something else? And so just unbundling, unbundling, unbundling, saying what leadership is. And we came around with this idea of improvement, saying ultimately anybody who is able to drive continuous improvement in their context is a leader. 

And to be able to do effective improvements, better improvements – all you need is to be able to sense better, to be able to make sense better, and to be able to learn on the go. And this has been the core philosophy of Shikshalom.  And this was one of the mindset shifts to say, leadership is. is about all this complexity, but it can actually manifest itself in the most simplest of forms by somebody having the agency to drive continuous improvement. That ownership. 

I think the second big mindset shift for us was the whole co-creation layer that we spoke about earlier. I will have all the solution versus I really have to bring together people who will solve this together who will co-create solutions. So in Societal Thinking, we always talk about distributing the ability to solve. And what is it that one has to do to distribute, that ability to solve or to enable that ability to solve for others? 

And this was a big mindset shift, because that meant all the micro improvements will not come from ShikshaLokam. All the micro improvements will not come from Mantra. But so many other people in the ecosystem, have to come together to design their own micro improvements. School principals have to design their micro improvements. And that was a huge mindset shift. I think there are so many, my laundry list is big. 

But one thing that I really want to share and this I keep talking to my team also, no matter how many years you have spent in the sector, is to continue to operate with a beginner’s mindset. You may know a lot of things, but again, when you face a new challenge, just opening up and saying, I don’t know what I don’t know, and it helps you really come up with very innovative solutions and come up with new pathways. And that is very important. So one of the mindset shifts that I always keep like, like a mantra to me saying, am I operating with a beginner’s mindset or am I going with a Know-It-All? and that has really been helping me.

[Sid]

So, you know, at C4EC, we always talk about voices and people who talk about the values and what C4EC is really about. And you’re probably one of the loudest, but you are probably the loudest. So I want you to understand, going back a little bit into the books for a second, how much of that has really shaped you? And I feel that there is so much of it when you speak so passionately about this. And now that you in part involved with C4EC for a little bit, how much of it translates back into the work that you’re trying to do here?

[Khushboo]

100% nobody in my life has told me I’m the loudest in the room. But yes, I think when it comes to Societal Thinking principles, this is a set of guiding values and principles. I am the most ardent supporter and believer because I’ve lived through that journey. I already described, we were doing things a certain way. Yeah, with Mantra4Change. Then first and foremost, the whole idea that we can actually put a goal as audacious as country scale was itself Unthinkable. It only became possible because of the simple thing, that scale is not about what you do with your resources, but it is about the size of the problem. Now, it’s not about me, It’s about the size of the problem. 

So I can actually very dispassionately put that problem statement on the table. That itself happened because of Societal Thinking now that you have put it out there, then there are a set of design principles that are guiding me to say, it’s not just a wish, it’s not a dream, it is a dream. Everything starts with a dream, but it’s not something that you put out and then pray for it. You could do something about it. And then design principles or Societal Thinking actually give you a lot of confidence that this can be done right. 

So whether it is about, distributing the ability to solve, which we already spoke about, whether it is about how do you catalyse interactions, you know, we spoke about patience, we spoke about trust, catalysing interaction is all about that. People don’t trust you. They will not interact. So how do you enable trust at scale. I mean for me, every single Decision in the journey of ShikshaLokam or shaping Shikshagraha as a movement has been deeply guided by Societal Thinking, values. 

And the reason I’m again now here at the Centre for Exponential Change is because when you are, looking at problem statements in the context of other missions, it triggers ideas and inspiration that you can actually take up your work. Otherwise, how do you develop a beginner’s mindset when you are always in the education domain? For me, when I’m in the education domain, no matter what I do, I say, yeah, I’ve seen this. Yes, I know this. But the moment I start applying these principles in the context of a new Journey Partner, Hmm.. they are thinking like this, I should also be thinking like this. Or when you see somebody else experiencing it, you get inspiration. And at least for me, it really triggers a lot of inspiration and creativity in my mind.

[Ashcharya]

You are talking about unlearning. And you also spoke of especially leaders like you who are looking to tackle the scale of the problem. And you have to work with a lot of stakeholders who are in the Samaaj (Civil Society), Sarkaar (Government) and Bazaar (markets) that we commonly term as, which means a lot of conflicts. There’s a lot of unlearning, letting go in some sense, and conflicts with varied opinions, thought processes. 

And I heard this interview somewhere where, your husband, co-founder Santosh More.And when you two have conflicts amongst the two of you, he’s the first one apologise. Now, like he has all reasons to apologies, Not sure which year that interview was in? Has that changed over the years? There is more equality. So that’s a great conflict resolution, method that you have obviously. 

But when we come into the reality of you being moving from a social entrepreneur now, moving into the direction of a system orchestrator, and you have different actors, that you have to work with. So what is conflict resolution or how do you work around with conflict at that point, and how do you leverage the network to step up towards the idea to bring the ecosystem together, to work towards that student that you are talking about?

[Khushboo]

That’s a very layered question. Maybe I start with the whole idea of conflict. We already spoke about the diversity of actors. There’s government. There’s Non-profits, there are individuals there are funding organisations and there are the actual school leaders and teachers who are part of the system. And everybody has different incentives. Everybody has the same purpose. Because when you are in the business of building trust you, you don’t doubt the intent. So everybody has different incentives. They may have their own worldviews, they may have their own experiences. And there will be some sort of power dynamics. So conflicts are bound to come. 

So that is something, it’s not a surprise. We designed for it, yes, conflicts will be there and we have to find our way around the conflicts. I think one big mindset shift, that has been integral to our own journey as entrepreneurs. sometimes you don’t have to find a solution. You are not the only one to bring the solution to the table. So, about these conflicts, now that, I am slightly more experienced than I was before, I think the thing that has helped is just holding those spaces, taking each conflict as an opportunity to create a space where diverse actors come together. 

They share what they are not aligned with. And then again, unbundling to say what is the real question that is sitting with them, which is not helping them open up and contribute in the best way possible, and those spaces have really helped Especially when you are in the in the whole act of bringing the ecosystem together, sometimes we undermine the power of these spaces, like three of us sitting here and talking. We now know each other slightly better than what we knew an hour before. So those spaces are very powerful. When people come together in your work, Ashcharya, In the Leader’s Lab is about bringing people together. 

Yeah, I think in our work at ShikshaLokam, that is part of our job where we bring diverse actors together to just come together, call out, and also people have to feel safe to be able to articulate what they are not comfortable. So I think conflict resolution, the best thing that has worked for us is, is bringing people together when they connect with each other as people, when they build trust, they’re far more open to actually call out what is the real problem that they’re facing, that they are struggling with, and then the people, the community finds the solution. I don’t have to offer the solution. I don’t have to resolve the conflict. I could just create a space where conflict will get resolved. 

And these are things that we do almost every day at ShikshaLokam, whether inside or outside, with NGO’s or with government actors or with diverse actors. The second part of your question was the network. how do we just step up? I think that is so much to do with role modeling. I would have never imagined during my childhood that I could be an entrepreneur. Like I said, nobody in my family is an entrepreneur. I’ve never seen somebody like that. And but when you start seeing those kind of people around you and it’s not that difficult, it’s imaginable. I can also do it. 

So I think in the network different partners are there and they see us playing that role. And then all I have to do is to say, Hey, do you want to do this next time? Do you think you can do it in your context? 

I’ll take the example of Vidhya Vidhai, it’s an organisation based in Tamil Nadu, India. And they’ve been associated with us since 2017. Ram and Regila are dear friends, very amazing social entrepreneurs. And we were talking to them about Shikshagraha and we said, you know, we are doing this across India. And what would it take for Vidhya Vidhai to play that role for Tamil Nadu as an ecosystem. more social entrepreneurs within the districts of Tamil Nadu and then enable this kind of support structure for them? 

And they said, yeah, it’s feasible. It’s doable. Yeah, I know that person. So, you know, when people know it can’t be all a black box for people to be able to take the first step. But the moment you start showing them that this is the pathway, this is a step by step guidance at least to some extent. People are ready to raise up the local action. And it’s happening. It’s happening so beautifully, in Shikshagraha And Vidhya Vidhai is just one such example.

[Ashcharya]

You spoke of Shikshagraha, do you want to tell the audience what it is, that will be super helpful just in like a liner so everyone understands what’s the next big thing for ShikshaLokam. Look, okay, Shikshagraha is a movement.

[Khushboo]

It’s a people’s movement. The core idea was that if for the freedom of the country (India) people could come together and shape Satyagraha, Education inequity as a challenge has existed in our country for more than 70 years now. If it is such a complex challenge, what would it take for people to come together and really solve it? And that’s why Sikshagraha. Sikshagraha is conceptualised as a movement. It is not one program. Sikshagraha is not ShikshaLokam. It is not Mantra4Change. It is everybody.

[Sid]

One question that I have when you speak of, constantly being able to evolve and every time you hit a I won’t call it a roadblock, but a milestone that you hit. And then there’s a fork in the road and then say may be this way,? And then somebody is there to say, yes, this way works. So how important do you think as a leader, as somebody who’s at the helm of affairs to take a step back and say, maybe it is right to take this decision and adaptability, being able to pivot and from the conversations when you were introducing yourself, I felt that there was so much of this ability to pivot that was built into you from the beginning,

[Khushboo]

I think it’s not easy. It’s a lot of practice, but the moment you are on this journey, you realise that there’s just no other way, that there are challenges outside your control that will come in your way. And then as long as you’re clear on the goal, as long as you are clear on the purpose, you have to find the other way. What are the possible pathways? And that’s I always use the word possible pathways. 

Because I may have planned something amazing on a paper, and the moment it hits the real world, you know that things will changegovernment may change NGO partner can suddenly become, for whatever reason, they can go dormant or, some policy would come or some funder would say, hey, right now I’m not going to fund this particular project. And what do you do? Or some team member may fall sick? Yeah, absolutely. So I think if there’s no size to the these abilities or these traits, but one has to keep practicing it, practicing it. These are uncomfortable. 

Obviously, at that point in time you feel like, you know, why? Why did this happen? Why did this have to happen now, We’ve had so many examples where it looked so simple, like a state level program would just go live and then suddenly you get a call that, hey, the bureaucrat that you are engaging with that you have spent like last three months to build this relationship and really get ready to sign the MoU and that bureaucrat got transferred. And then again you have start. So at that point time obviously it’s frustrating, but yeah. As long as you know it needs to be done. It needs to be done

[Ashcharya]

Khushboo, we’ve heard your journey and it has a lot to do with a champion. who was able to enable your agency, dignity and choice at different points. So there are many, many Khushboo’s out there, young Khushboo. What would your one message to that young Khusboo be?

[Khushboo]

When you say young Khusbhoo, I’m assuming it’s also the girls. Sometimes life appears very bleak, full of challenges. But, just believing that you have that potential, the power is already inside. it just needs to be unleashed. And what can help unleash is don’t give up. Keep making small choices for yourselves. Because like Sid was saying, it’s all a muscle when you keep even if it’s about, Who am I going to visit? Who am I going to talk to? 

It’s that it can be as simple as that. But those small, small choices really help build that muscles, start believing in yourself that yes, I have the power to make a choice. I have choice and the core idea that again, all of us keep talking about the idea of agency that’s already there. We will be able to unleash it, restore it if we practice it. 

And second, we will find if we are able to look out for champions who are around us and seek them out and ask for help. Being powerful doesn’t mean we don’t ask for help. You have to always ask for help.

[Ashcharya]

And to all the young entrepreneurs who are out there, mostly the social entrepreneurs who are in that stress, so how do I manage all of this? If you could give two tips, actionable tips that’ll help.

[Khushboo]

One, going back to what I have learned, through my immersion in Societal Thinking, do not build for people. Build with them. Whosoever you’re working for don’t have a pre-baked solution that is designed with a lot of body of knowledge and with a lot of expertise to say, this is what will solve your problem. How do we take the ingredients and really ask people to also bring ingredients, their experiences, their values, and then build with them? 

Second, I think trust. There are people, other people around us who also care for that issue, and it always helps to trust people and bring them into the community. So if we were to prioritise between taking a solution or implementing a solution versus building a community, Now having experience all this, I would always first prioritise building community. Solutions will emerge. Problems will get solved only when like-minded people come to me. These two.

[Sid]

I always find interesting to ask, let’s assume you’re sitting and doing this podcast again with ShikshaLokam and us and Shikshagraha and Mantra4Change did everything that you set out to do. Let’s assume that you have. And you sitting after having achieved, I wouldn’t call it success, but mission accomplished. So what next? What would that look like? What is that ideal scenario where everything kind of worked?

[Khushboo]

I’m glad you asked what next. Because, like I said, for us at, Mantra or ShikshaLokam Or now with Shikshagraha how do we enable enriching learning experiences for children? And this is for all children in the country. But just because you have had an enriching learning experience doesn’t necessarily guarantee an opportunity in your life. 

So we are already thinking about how to really create this bridge from learning experiences to opportunities in life. So that means when a child today graduates from class 12, what next? Because higher education Is in equal mess. Yes of course. And then with AI and with how the world is changing around us, what does even life opportunities mean for these children in 2030? Or in 2035. We do not know. So instead of waiting for 2030 to come at the doorstep And then we will say, we will start thinking the thinking has begun. But, that’s next.

[Sid and Khushboo]

So it’s a constant journey then. It’s a constant journey. 

[Sid]

And just one final question. How do you translate your long-term aspirations into goals and milestones? And of course, you just answered that a little bit. 

[Khushboo]

Baby Steps. Micro Improvements. 

[Sid]

Perfect. I should just end with that. But one thing that I, I, I don’t know whether, if mythology serves me correctly. You are from Gaya. Didn’t Gautam Buddha achieve enlightenment in Gaya It’s amazing that you are in education it’s just befitting. It was to be that somebody from Gaya does it. Bihar is the seat of a lot of knowledge Historically To have you champion education is something else. And isn’t it Lucky that I don’t even have to leave my family to be on this path It’s not just a question of your own enlightenment You are enabling agency, for other people to be enlightened as well. And that’s a privilege. That absolutely is a privilege. So I’m glad that you’re doing this and we’re so happy to have done this. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. With the two of you. Thank you.